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00:00:00 #1 after the hour of 6 in the evening of January 31, 1985.
00:00:05 #2 And we're located in offices, Jason II offices,
00:00:09 #3 occupied by the Federal Bureau of Investigations in San Antonio, Texas,
00:00:13 #4 for the purpose of interviewing Gordon Joseph Reiner under hypnosis
00:00:17 #5 in order to refresh his memory of events that he may have witnessed
00:00:21 #6 associated with an undercover reverse operation in Miami Lakes, Florida
00:00:26 #7 on or about March 11, 1981.
00:00:30 #8 In addition to myself, James W. Kenney,
00:00:33 #9 special agent of the Federal Bureau of the Investigation,
00:00:36 #10 and DEA special agent, Rainer, others present at this time,
00:00:41 #11 are Gerardo Cesar Medina, senior inspector
00:00:44 #12 from Drug Enforcement Administration,
00:00:46 #13 Headquarters in Oregon, DC,
00:00:49 #14 and Dr. Richard B. Garver, a clinical psychologist
00:00:51 #15 in private practice in San Antonio, Texas.
00:00:54 #16 Do you understand why we are here and what the purpose of the interview is?
00:01:03 #17 Yes, I do.
00:01:04 #18 And do you understand that your participation has to be voluntary?
00:01:09 #19 That you cannot be coerced or forced in a way to undergo an interview such as this?
00:01:15 #20 Yes, I am doing it voluntarily.
00:01:17 #21 Do you have any objection to us videotaping these entire procedures?
00:01:21 #22 Not at all.
00:01:22 #23 Do you have any
00:01:25 #24 Objection to any of the people that are present at this time been present throughout the interview. No if you do it anytime
00:01:31 #25 Please let us know okay, obviously if you object to dr. Garber. He's not really a problem
00:01:40 #26 Basically what we're gonna do and just a moment dr. Garber will talk with you and then afterwards I'll ask you to relate for us at a
00:01:48 #27 a
00:01:49 #28 remember level
00:01:51 #29 a conscious recollection
00:01:53 #30 of any events associated with this particular operation
00:01:56 #31 and that's the only thing we're interested in
00:01:58 #32 is what happened in Miami Lakes, Florida
00:02:00 #33 in this operation on the 11th of March, 1981
00:02:04 #34 we don't care which heat for breakfast or anything else
00:02:07 #35 fine
00:02:08 #36 and then if you agree, we'll sign a consent form
00:02:11 #37 and then we'll go into the hypnotic interview
00:02:13 #38 sure, on time if I...
00:02:15 #39 at this time I'd like to give just a little background
00:02:17 #40 Dr. Garber, he's a certified and licensed clinical psychologist in private practice in San Antonio, Texas.
00:02:23 #41 He's involved in treatment of several hundred patients each month in the training of many doctors in hypnotherapy.
00:02:29 #42 He's a diplomat at the American Board of Psychological Hypnosis with a specialty in clinical hypnosis
00:02:35 #43 and serves as a special consultant to the FBI.
00:02:39 #44 He's here to join because we consider your welfare in this interview.
00:02:43 #45 You have any questions?
00:02:47 #46 No, none at all.
00:02:50 #47 We've had just a moment to meet and I need to tell you what we're here to do in terms of how we're going to use hypnosis.
00:03:00 #48 Hypnosis is an altered state of consciousness, so in a way it's an invasive procedure,
00:03:07 #49 But the way it's going to be used here really is more relaxation and a focus than anything else.
00:03:15 #50 I want to give you some information about hypnosis, answer any questions you have,
00:03:23 #51 and then tell you exactly how we're going to use it in the interview.
00:03:28 #52 Some people think of hypnosis as a sleep state.
00:03:34 #53 It's really not the EEG is different than sleep.
00:03:38 #54 Actually, it's going to be in this situation more like having a daydream.
00:03:43 #55 You're going to be aware of being relaxed and being here to be aware of things around you.
00:03:51 #56 A person who would be having hypnosis or surgery would not.
00:03:56 #57 We would ask them to dissociate.
00:03:58 #58 We would ask them to go fishing or hunting or where they wanted to go.
00:04:03 #59 And we'd see that they get there and that they wouldn't be here.
00:04:06 #60 remember anything. But obviously that would be counter to what we're wanting to do here.
00:04:13 #61 This is to enhance memory. And hypnosis has, as it's center, a focus. Now the focus for
00:04:23 #62 the surgery patient is kind of the same focus that you or I would have if we listened
00:04:28 #63 to a boring speaker. It wouldn't be the speaker. It would be away someplace. We hope that
00:04:35 #64 This will be the same kind of focus that a woman would have when she's birthing a child
00:04:43 #65 with hypnosis.
00:04:45 #66 She doesn't want to be away.
00:04:46 #67 She wants to be a part of that.
00:04:48 #68 She's hypnotized to produce anesthesia, but she's very much involved here and now.
00:04:54 #69 If we were listening to a very interesting charismatic speaker, we wouldn't be very
00:04:58 #70 much involved here and to the exclusion of other things.
00:05:05 #71 That's where the focus will be.
00:05:08 #72 It will be here, part of you, part of your mind
00:05:13 #73 focusing on our questions.
00:05:15 #74 And you will also then be somewhere else.
00:05:20 #75 We're asking you to go back to a situation,
00:05:26 #76 I call it a memory walk.
00:05:27 #77 We're just back, visualize this other place, this other time,
00:05:33 #78 where you have certainly been and place yourself there and then go with us forward from there
00:05:43 #79 as though we're happening now, go forward through that period of time as we can do it slowly,
00:05:51 #80 carefully, we can kind of stop the action and have you go only that far and then answer
00:05:57 #81 some questions, take it a little further and so on.
00:06:00 #82 And it will, as I understand it, it will be at a time that where you were involved with
00:06:12 #83 the action, so you will have been there and you will simply be there again and tell us
00:06:17 #84 what you're doing as you go through it again in your mind and essentially that's it.
00:06:25 #85 The reason that we ask you, as Jim will in a moment, to consciously go through it first
00:06:32 #86 is to see what the difference is between your conscious recollection, which is, of course,
00:06:41 #87 being here and the present and trying to remember back as to what happened, as opposed to getting
00:06:50 #88 relaxed and then going back there and going forward as though we're happening now.
00:06:57 #89 And that seems to elicit a far better recall than it does to be here and remember.
00:07:03 #90 So basically that's why we do that comparison.
00:07:09 #91 Have you tell Mr. Kenny consciously what you remember?
00:07:14 #92 And then we do the hypnotic interview.
00:07:17 #93 So that's it in a nutshell.
00:07:20 #94 I guess I need only to know, I might as well ask you now before we do the actual hypnotic
00:07:26 #95 interview formally if you're on any medication.
00:07:32 #96 No, I'm not.
00:07:34 #97 Okay, and that, do you have any other medical history of any period of unconsciousness for
00:07:41 #98 any period of time?
00:07:43 #99 Trouble with anesthesia, anything like that?
00:07:45 #100 No, I don't.
00:07:46 #101 And any psychiatric history?
00:07:48 #102 No.
00:07:49 #103 Thank you. Well, I guess one other thing. How is your vision normally? Is it 2020 or corrected?
00:07:58 #104 No, it's not 2020. It's 2020. 2010. My right eye and about 2016. My left eye. I wear glasses for
00:08:07 #105 distance. I do have a pair of reading glasses that I don't use because they're too close up.
00:08:12 #106 Okay. At the time of this particular situation, were you wearing glasses?
00:08:17 #107 No, I wasn't.
00:08:18 #108 Okay.
00:08:19 #109 I just started wearing them regularly within the last year.
00:08:23 #110 Okay.
00:08:24 #111 And are you, to your knowledge, colorblind?
00:08:27 #112 Do you have any trouble separating blues and yellows or reds and greens?
00:08:31 #113 No.
00:08:32 #114 It was recent attest as six months ago.
00:08:35 #115 I did not.
00:08:36 #116 Okay.
00:08:37 #117 All right.
00:08:38 #118 Any questions for me?
00:08:39 #119 No.
00:08:40 #120 Okay.
00:08:41 #121 Accordingly, what I'd like to do is read the consent form out loud.
00:08:45 #122 I'm going to ask you to look it over, see if you have any questions about it, and then
00:08:50 #123 try to address the instructions you have.
00:08:53 #124 It reads on January 31, 1985 at San Antonio, Texas.
00:08:58 #125 I, Gordon Joseph Rainer, hereby agree voluntarily and freely to undergo hypnosis and be interviewed
00:09:04 #126 under hypnosis in order to assist the Drug Enforcement Administration, DEA, with an inquiry or
00:09:11 #127 investigation that DEA is conducting. I understand that James W. Kenney, a special
00:09:17 #128 agent of the FBI, and that's myself, will be present and assist in the interview.
00:09:21 #129 I also understand that a videotape recording will be made of the entire
00:09:25 #130 interview and that this method of preservation of the interview may be
00:09:29 #131 used for any lawful purpose connected with this investigation or any
00:09:34 #132 subsequent action based upon the investigation. Dr. Richard B. Garber, a
00:09:39 #133 a mental health professional has explained procedures to be used during the course of this hypnosis session
00:09:45 #134 and any questions I had concerning this procedure have been answered to my satisfaction.
00:09:50 #135 The purpose of this interview under hypnosis is to assist my memory in recalling events I may have witnessed
00:09:57 #136 associated with an undercover reverse operation in Miami Lakes, Florida on or about March 11, 1981.
00:10:06 #137 Can I ask you to look back over it and see if you have any questions about anything?
00:10:10 #138 Do you feel like you understand it?
00:10:17 #139 Yes, I do.
00:10:18 #140 Okay.
00:10:19 #141 If I could then, if you're willing to.
00:10:21 #142 Okay.
00:10:22 #143 Dr. Garber, can I get you to stand for him typically?
00:10:24 #144 I can just see the tape after it's done.
00:10:42 #145 If you want to.
00:10:43 #146 I didn't ask you to initialize crossouts for a crossout that you should have been
00:10:51 #147 answered the way unless you feel it's necessary.
00:10:54 #148 Can you tell me what you remember about this?
00:11:13 #149 And keeping in mind that our interest is, as it pertains to this particular event, this operation,
00:11:21 #150 I think, where, which one we're talking about.
00:11:23 #151 Right. Prior to March 11, I think it was either the 10th or probably the 9th,
00:11:31 #152 I was down there from Savannah assisting the agents in Operation Grupper.
00:11:38 #153 I packed up in a resin agent charge in Savannah at the time that we had another reverse deal
00:11:47 #154 go down at the same location, the apartment as it was known, involving flashing either
00:11:54 #155 50 pounds or 50 keys of coke.
00:11:58 #156 And I got involved in the chain of custody of the coke.
00:12:03 #157 It was bothersome to me that the methods of control they used for the evidence were not
00:12:11 #158 up to my standards.
00:12:14 #159 Using that as a basis that on some time before the deal went down on the old evidence, I think
00:12:20 #160 it was that morning we had a meeting on how the deal was going to go and that I said that
00:12:27 #161 I was insistent that we were going to have some using evidence label, DEA evidence labels,
00:12:34 #162 and secure the money that was anticipated to be obtained from the violators, seal that
00:12:41 #163 in some manner, and that, especially if I was going to get involved with it, and that
00:12:47 #164 way I wouldn't have to be involved in the chain of custody of the evidence for a case
00:12:52 #165 that was basically the groups in Miami.
00:12:55 #166 And if my participation involved taking a sealed box, I could hold it for a period of time and
00:13:01 #167 turn it back over and still not appear in the official chain of custody because of the
00:13:07 #168 my confidence in the sealing methods that I would have to be officially involved in
00:13:14 #169 the chain of custody.
00:13:17 #170 So at some time at the meeting in the morning, I insisted that we do use the DEA labels,
00:13:23 #171 evidence labels and put it in a box and somehow we got the Xerox box.
00:13:29 #172 They then, or we all went out to the undercover area.
00:13:33 #173 The first thing, the group supervisor surprised me when he changed the game plan and said,
00:13:41 #174 you handle the outside situation, which is the surveillance and the arrest of the bad guys.
00:13:47 #175 After they leave the apartment with the Coke.
00:13:50 #176 because I figured I was only a
00:13:53 #177 Even though I was a supervisor. I was only a visitor from out of town and that I
00:13:57 #178 Should not have had that job that it was his group and his operation
00:14:01 #179 But I agreed to do it anyway
00:14:04 #180 We got set up on the apartment out in Miami Lakes
00:14:07 #181 The deal was that the undercover agents were in the apartment and as we had done in the past up to the
00:14:20 #182 711 area the coverage and we come out
00:14:24 #183 meet them and lead them into the area as a protective measure.
00:14:29 #184 In the meantime, surveillance at the 7-Eleven,
00:14:38 #185 we determined that they had received a call.
00:14:40 #186 I observed Agent Healy come up in the trans-AM,
00:14:45 #187 meet with the two subjects.
00:14:47 #188 I think we're in a super-station wagon towards the house.
00:14:55 #189 The surveillance had been planned.
00:14:57 #190 We had set up on the house.
00:14:59 #191 I set up in a position that looking down a dead end or a cul-de-sac driveway
00:15:06 #192 where there's I think about five apartments on either side where I could see the
00:15:10 #193 sidewalk where the entrance to the house which is recessed back off the
00:15:16 #194 sidewalk was. We had previously arranged that if the deal went down the bad
00:15:22 #195 guys got the coke that the agent Healy would come out to the car with the
00:15:27 #196 bad guys, a visual signal that the deal had gone down, and we would put the arrest plan
00:15:32 #197 in operation. We had also planned that after securing the bad guys, which was to take place
00:15:41 #198 almost with inside of the undercover apartment, to keep the guys in the undercover apartment
00:15:48 #199 cool, we would fake hitting the apartment, kicking down the door, allegedly, and arresting
00:15:54 #200 them so I was to make the bad guys think that they weren't the cops.
00:16:01 #201 We set up on the apartment as I said.
00:16:03 #202 I was sitting, I had a GMC Blazer, an official government vehicle that I was sitting in with
00:16:09 #203 a female agent from Tampa, Sergeant or Deputy Sheriff from some rural county near Panama
00:16:18 #204 City, Florida.
00:16:19 #205 The area was the bad guys had to come out of this cul-de-sac and down a narrow
00:16:24 #206 driveway.
00:16:25 #207 And we had a Dade County marked unit at both ends of it with agents following them at both ends.
00:16:37 #208 The house from the bad guys arrived.
00:16:40 #209 They made another phone call and Jeff Charlott drove up in his Z-car,
00:16:47 #210 parked it and took the coke into the house, or took the coke to the door of the house.
00:16:52 #211 He turned and sat in his car, which was across the drive from the apartment.
00:16:58 #212 Eventually, Pat Healy and the two bad guys came out, put something in the car, and since he was with him, I knew that they had to co-cow.
00:17:10 #213 Kyle worded the other surveillance units, and as they came up and turned down the street out of sight at the front of the apartment,
00:17:18 #214 Dave County Public Safety Unit moved in from the front, Superu stopped, and they started to back up.
00:17:25 #215 and the other marked unit came up behind them, the agents in the car behind the
00:17:34 #216 Dade County unit in front came at the car and by this time I had come over the
00:17:41 #217 wall, hitting wall between the driveway where I was and where the action was, and
00:17:48 #218 the arrest went down, the arrest and seizure went down. Both guys had guns,
00:17:54 #219 we seized them, the guns, and the coke with the standard confusion that goes
00:18:00 #220 down one of those deals. And then as an afterthought sort of, oh yeah, let's hit the apartment.
00:18:10 #221 And Jeff got there ahead of me because he wasn't really involved in the bust. And then I made
00:18:22 #222 loud noises and pulled my shiny automatic out and says, okay, let's go hit the apartment
00:18:26 #223 and ran down the short distance to it and hooping an hour and making lots of noise
00:18:32 #224 looking like a fucking fool that I went up and beat on the door and went in inside the
00:18:41 #225 agents I remember that were in there was Ted Weed, Larry Hawn, Pat Healey, and I think
00:18:50 #226 Billy Retton from Panama City.
00:18:57 #227 Someway I got the money and this in the or somebody said there's the box of money
00:19:05 #228 money is in the box. The evidence tapes were on it and somebody also suggested
00:19:12 #229 hurry up, let's clean up the place because we expect another bunch of bad guys
00:19:18 #230 in there going to run a similar deal again. And as I picked up the box the
00:19:24 #231 evidence tapes came off, they're off the bottom. Remember I was saying, oh shit now I'm
00:19:37 #232 I'm in the chain of custody of money.
00:19:40 #233 I took it back out.
00:19:42 #234 I took custody of the money.
00:19:45 #235 And initially, I thought I had gone back to my memory
00:19:53 #236 being refreshed previously, that Jeff and I
00:19:56 #237 got in his Z-car and drove down to the gas station,
00:20:01 #238 where some of the surveillance agents were,
00:20:02 #239 and whoever had driven my blazer down there.
00:20:10 #240 The money in the back of the blazer,
00:20:15 #241 still with this female agent.
00:20:17 #242 and there was a black agent that accompanied us back to the DA office and carried the money upstairs,
00:20:23 #243 born the group that I was working with, and an agent from Savannah that worked for me and two local police officers from the Glenn County Police Department in Georgia
00:20:38 #244 who were with me, part of my entourage, counted the money quickly or counted bundles, I don't recall which,
00:20:47 #245 and determined that instead of two and a quarter,
00:20:50 #246 there was only about $165,000 there.
00:20:55 #247 I temporarily sealed it, put the money back in the box,
00:20:58 #248 temporarily sealed it again,
00:21:00 #249 and I wrapped it in plastic tape
00:21:02 #250 and put my evidence stickers on it
00:21:04 #251 with my name and everything,
00:21:06 #252 and stored it until, I guess it was two days later,
00:21:10 #253 when I took it out and processed the money,
00:21:12 #254 counted it again and again, verified the count on it,
00:21:16 #255 it and put it in DEA evidence envelopes, the clear evidence envelopes, and he'd sealed it and turned it into cashier.
00:21:24 #256 You know what the trial was a big stink made about the fact that the money was not what it was supposed to be.
00:21:36 #257 I had since already learned after the trial that the defense attorney had already given his defendants a polygraph,
00:21:44 #258 his clients' V-Defendants polygraph test and they had passed it or indicated that they
00:21:50 #259 had not taken the money that there was $220,000 or something like that there.
00:21:56 #260 And therefore somebody in DEA must be responsible for the loss of it.
00:22:01 #261 And I took a polygraph that I guess proved that I didn't have anything to do with it.
00:22:10 #262 And that's about it.
00:22:14 #263 going into detail, so you know questions that's I don't know specifics on what
00:22:18 #264 what is important to us and why I've asked you to go through it like that is that
00:22:23 #265 excuse me quite honestly we don't know what aspect you played in this and it
00:22:28 #266 serves as a roadmap for me I'll be the person talking to you when you're in
00:22:32 #267 hypnosis and it serves a roadmap to kind of get started. I think for our
00:22:38 #268 purposes you said there was a meeting that morning before the bus came
00:22:43 #269 about school.
00:22:44 #270 Yeah, before the deal went down there was a meeting.
00:22:46 #271 I'm pretty sure it was that morning as opposed to the day before.
00:22:50 #272 Well, we'll use that meeting as a point that we want to go to.
00:22:55 #273 Okay.
00:22:56 #274 And, excuse me, as you start getting in touch with it, if it's that morning or the preceding
00:23:03 #275 day, it'll be academic because you'll go to that meeting.
00:23:07 #276 Okay.
00:23:08 #277 If it is the preceding day, could you let us know?
00:23:11 #278 All right.
00:23:12 #279 what day it is, the day before, part of it's that, the day of the eleventh.
00:23:17 #280 And then what I'm particularly interested in are the conversations,
00:23:22 #281 the events, what happened, how you ended up with money, things of this nature.
00:23:27 #282 Now basically be the line that I'd like to pursue.
00:23:30 #283 If at any time, while I'm talking to you, I guess being an investigator,
00:23:35 #284 you like to think of yourself as logical and progressive,
00:23:38 #285 might be in my mind going from one to two to three to four.
00:23:42 #286 If all of a sudden you say, hey, this kid's going too slow for me.
00:23:45 #287 I want to go to six. Go to six.
00:23:46 #288 OK.
00:23:48 #289 I will be starting you out on a roadmap that I feel is developmental.
00:23:54 #290 But if anything comes into your mind,
00:23:57 #291 sure, you just say whatever the hell it is. All right.
00:24:01 #292 And if you don't like the method of questioning
00:24:03 #293 or how we're going about it, just say, let's try something else. All right. OK.
00:24:07 #294 because you're the engineer.
00:24:08 #295 All right.
00:24:09 #296 This is my mind.
00:24:10 #297 I'm going to get back into the meeting before or to the March 11 thing.
00:24:15 #298 Is that where we want to go to the meeting before or the March 11 scenario?
00:24:22 #299 March 11th morning or?
00:24:25 #300 March 11th morning.
00:24:29 #301 Just briefly as to the box.
00:24:32 #302 The discussion.
00:24:35 #303 The only thing I'm interested in at the meeting really
00:24:38 #304 As I say, since the box seems to be the thing in question, any discussion of the box, how
00:24:43 #305 it's going to be sealed, how it's going to be treated, who said what, and then eventually
00:24:47 #306 it can change.
00:24:48 #307 That would be the meeting with group one, which would be Jeff, Ted, Pat, and getting
00:24:55 #308 the script ready for the day they've been in.
00:24:59 #309 That would be the one.
00:25:01 #310 Can you have any questions?
00:25:03 #311 No, not yet. But I'm getting a little nervous. That's it. I'm going to do it.
00:25:08 #312 Well, yeah, you've been sitting around all day waiting.
00:25:10 #313 Oh boy, yes. Just like that.
00:25:12 #314 Okay, no.
00:25:13 #315 Okay. As I mentioned to you before, both Jim and I are going to talk with you and help you be relaxed and help you go through this.
00:25:38 #316 And basically as you were going through this just now, telling him what went on, probably
00:25:51 #317 as you were thinking about these events you even had metal pictures that formed in your
00:25:58 #318 mind as most of us do when we're recounting some kind of event.
00:26:05 #319 that's what we're going to be doing except that I'd like to start by just closing your
00:26:11 #320 eyes and relaxing and just being as comfortable as you can be. And I'm going to be taking
00:26:21 #321 your pulse here if you can just let me have this so I can have some idea of how you're
00:26:29 #322 doing and if you just take a deep breath for me now slow and easy and then let it
00:26:37 #323 all out this one a nice deep breath and hold it now
00:26:57 #324 Gordon now feel the tension build and use the tension as a signal just to
00:27:10 #325 release and just let go and just let all the tension drain away and what I'd
00:27:19 #326 What I'd like you to do now is to begin just to drift it back.
00:27:28 #327 A way that will help you do that is to start at the number 100 and think silently to yourself
00:27:36 #328 backward by once.
00:27:37 #329 In other words, think 99, 98, 97.
00:27:42 #330 And continue to do that.
00:27:44 #331 and just give me a signal by moving this finger as you're doing that.
00:27:53 #332 That's fine.
00:27:55 #333 You might time the count with your breathing every time you breathe in or out.
00:28:01 #334 And that just helps you concentrate consciously,
00:28:14 #335 and your unconscious mind can listen to me.
00:28:17 #336 And it just happens very naturally, very easily.
00:28:20 #337 While you're doing that now,
00:28:33 #338 I want you also to just kind of drift back in time, maybe to earlier today, yesterday,
00:28:43 #339 the day before, last week, last month.
00:28:47 #340 It really doesn't matter what events you touch upon during this course.
00:28:54 #341 But the target is March 11th, 1981, at that meeting that you were just discussing.
00:29:05 #342 And I just want you to kind of take your time and drift back to that time.
00:29:11 #343 And when you get there, and I want you to just place yourself at that meeting
00:29:18 #344 so that we can go forward from there.
00:29:22 #345 And when you do that, you can stop the counting and you can just let me know by just raising this hand completely.
00:29:38 #346 Another signal that we can use is, there's a part of your brain, your unconscious mind that helps you relax even more.
00:29:55 #347 I'm just going to give you a signal that signal is just
00:30:00 #348 Pressure on your right shoulder just like this and that pressure will be a signal for you to relax
00:30:07 #349 even more become more involved in
00:30:10 #350 In the imagery
00:30:13 #351 And when you can get a picture of you
00:30:18 #352 being
00:30:22 #353 Before it starts or just as it's starting you you can pick the spot
00:30:27 #354 you know best where to begin. Then you signal me and Mr. Kenny and I will help you get more
00:30:39 #355 involved. Actually we're going to be going along for the ride so to speak and having
00:30:50 #356 you sort of be our eyes and our ears, our guide, means you to tell us where we're
00:31:13 #357 going next. We want to be there with you and so there will be some pictures that are occurring
00:31:22 #358 to us as you explain yours to us, what you are seeing. We want then to be now, now to
00:31:32 #359 be then. When that time becomes now, we want you to go through that, tell us what you
00:31:42 #360 Go through that. Tell us what you're doing now, what you're going to do next.
00:31:50 #361 And we'll be attempting to stay with you and to form pictures in our minds as well as to what is happening and how you describe it to us.
00:32:07 #362 And I suggest to you that as you learn this method as you go along, that you'll be able to use this yourself to relax and help handle stress.